Why do you think it’s still difficult for them to trust BN even after 50 over years?

Precisely because of that. I think it’s been 50 over years and there still are certain grievances and frustrations that have not been taken into account. They feel that they’re willing to give the other side a chance and that’s the psychological hurdle which I think we have not been able to recover from.

What do you think are BN’s credibility issues among young people? What do you think are the things we need to address?

I mean it depends on where the young person is coming from.

If they’re coming from an urban setting, then a lot of it hinges on governance issues, corruption, freedom, civil liberties, and also generally the fact that they don’t feel connected with the BN leaders. They feel distant and whenever a BN leader opens his or her mouth, it’s just not the right messaging that comes across let alone the right actions. For the rural areas, maybe it’s more practical - in terms of job opportunities and relative deprivation, poverty, lower income frustrations.

The disadvantage that we have is precisely an advantage, which is incumbency. That helps you a lot because you have, of course, the powers of the state to do what you need to do. But the disadvantage of incumbency is simply that the people say that “It’s all your fault”, “Everything bad is your fault.”

I think getting over that is going to be quite difficult, especially when young people have seen that you can change government in states. The jury is still out on whether they’ll do better or not but at least things haven’t fallen apart and you know, you can take a chance at change. So that’s the danger for us because to young people they know that they can change and it’s a real possibility, and they might do it.

You’re not just the Umno Youth leader but also the BN Youth leader. What steps are you taking to resolve the issues, and strengthen the party?

Well I think the main thing is for BN Youth to carry a different politics than the past generations. I’m not saying what they did was necessarily wrong or misplaced, but I think things have changed and you really have to put national interest above communal interest. As BN youth leader and as well as Umno Youth leader, I have to balance this all the time.

When you asked me during the rapid fire “Malaysian or Malay?” you wanted an answer. The real answer I would’ve given is very difficult. Many identities make up who you are. It’s like asking me if I’m a father first or a husband first. You know it’s very difficult but at the end of the day you have to put the national interest first. So, I believe that this change in outlook is very important for all BN Youth parties.

I think people read too much into Tan Sri Muhiyiddin’s statement, you know when he said that he’s Malay first. I don’t think you should judge people. I don’t think I should be judged because I chose Malaysian over Malay in that rapid fire round because that’s just how people view their identity. That doesn’t mean that he’s going to put aside people who are non-Malay just because of his personal identity. It’s an identity thing.

But what about his follow up statement “If I don’t say this, all the Malays will shun me.”

It’s actually a tripartite thing. It’s not a Malay and Malaysian (question) only. The original question, which was changed subsequently, was whether you a “Malaysian, Malay or Muslim first?” This whole thing started with (Lim) Kit Siang talking about the government transformation plan document where it said that 1Malaysia means you regard yourself as Malaysian first, and ethnicity and religion second.

But he dropped the religion part because he knew if he asked a lot of people in PAS, or even Keadilan for that matter, “What are you first - Malaysian, Malay or Muslim?” they’ll say Muslim. (Kit Siang) dropped that because he knew he didn’t want to be stuck. He didn’t want to be cornered.

My point is that identity is very personal. You cannot judge somebody just because you asked somebody what you are first and they say Muslim, and suddenly you say “This guys is not going to be fair to me because he sees himself as Muslim first.” That’s how he views himself and that doesn’t mean that’s how he’s going to act out towards other people. I think that’s an unfair question.

You might convince us here, but how do you convince the rest of the nation who took it negatively?

The popular thing to assume is that you should answer Malaysian first, which I think is wrong because the right question is “Is it national interest first or communal interest?” and I think that most people would say national interest. That’s a better question because that’s what you’re about to do.

That’s your priority rather than your identity. Identity is a very personal thing. I think it’s wrong for people to ask which one first because they shouldn’t rank it because we are the sum of our parts and everything about us makes us who we are. Not one over the other.

Why is it that the level of discussion in Malaysia so emotive? Because that is an emotional reaction to Muhyiddin’s answer. Why is it that we haven’t been able to move to the kind of discourse that you think should be happening?

Many Malaysians still see themselves as an ethnic marker. So the discussions and discourse always end up there. Even if you claim that you believe in multi-culturalism, multi-racialsm, it ends up there.

My point is, I wish we can have this discussion properly and really sit down and talk rationally about ethnicity in this country. But the problem is, everybody is sending out the wrong vibes...and it’s not just BN. It’s the other side as well. And to be fair, we haven’t overcome this as a country.

What’s your thoughts on race based politics?

I think it feeds off each other. Race based politics feeds off ethnic identities within the general public. Ethnic markers, pronounced ethnic feelings within Malaysians, that feeds off from race based politics. It becomes this vicious cycle and it’s very difficult to overcome that.

If it’s not ethnic markers, it’s religious markers. So political parties, even though they say they’re multi-racial, they are almost always dominated by one group. Politicians say they want to move away from communal politics but they end up playing some measure of communal politics.

Do you think we should move away from race based politics?

Eventually, we should. I always believe that these hang-ups, hopefully, will erode through time. And the more history we have behind us, the easier for us to move there. There are still people in this country who were born before Independence and they bring withthem those hang-ups.

And those hang-ups are not just in people’s memories, they are institutionalised within history books and school curriculum and of course within political parties.

But as time progresses, and people can’t remember (pre) Independence, then we are willing to move away from the hang-ups. I’ll tell you exactly what I mean. People who were born before Independence, they still remember the migrant communities, not just the first generation. So they have a hang-up about that.

That’s why they say pendatang and bangsa asing - things which I believe you shouldn’t say at all, but they still say it. It’s more out of personal experience rather than racism, maybe because they remember the once upon a time. The more history we leave behind us, the more you’re going to move away from these historical hang-ups.

How will leaving behind our history help?

There were many family of minority communities who were here long, long before the wave of migration happened during the British colony. But for some reason, a particular Malay psyche associates immigration with that period. So they think that most people came during then, which is of course, historically wrong. But that’s how they think.

So, my view is that at least people my generation, who didn’t go through that, we think of it differently. I don’t think of you or your parents, as somebody who just came here. I think of you as Malaysians. As far as the earlier years of Independence, post-Independence being more pluralistic than today, maybe it’s because of a few factors.

One of it is because of economic reasons, I think it’s because of this whole empowerment to the NEP, where more pronounced nationalism came out because of it, which we’re seeing today. Unfortunately, some of the more negative aspects has spilled over on to polarisation. The other one of it is of course religious; with the re-awakening of Islamic consciousness beginning at the end of the 70s, early 80s. Islam is conflated with the ethnic identity Malay here, and that has led to some form of polarisation, as well. So, that’s contributed to it as well.

But I feel that with new politics today where religion has taken a little bit of a back seat with the new centrist coalition forming around BN and Pakatan and I think with the memories of history receding quicker, I think we can get there quite fast. Hopefully.

Do you think that BN, as a party, recognises that? People fear that this new Islamic conciousness will bring forward Islamisation. How do we negotiate this when 40% of the nation are non-Muslims?

Again it’s very difficult because people in the Malay community and Muslim community find it difficult to have this conversation with people from outside the community. There is a sense of ownership about things pertaining to enthnicity and religion, especially to the extent that even having a inter-faith committee is an anathema.

It is very difficult for many Muslims to accept. Of course we saw that during the Allah issue as well. It’s a conversation I think Malays should start having amongst themselves. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t have this with people from other communities as well but must start talking honestly among ourselves about the demands of a more pluralist society.

And I think once we’re comfortable with that, then I think it’s easier for us to sit down and talk about these things with the remaining 40% of Malaysia which is a huge segment of our population. Of course some people would say that the problems are not with the Malays, but with the Malays in Barisan Nasional and those who support Barisan Nasional, because the others don’t have hang-ups.

I would contest that because I think a lot of people in PAS especially would have a problem to talk about matters of faith with people from other religion.

Not everybody in PAS is like Khalid Samad who is very progressive and very liberal. So it’s something we need to sort out among ourselves very quickly so that we can have this broader national conversation, and try and forge a more united country.

Do you think that there is movement towards that direction? Are the conversations starting?

I find the conversations today very unhelpful and I find it very polarising and I find it very divided, especially across the party lines.

So where do we go from here?

I don’t know. There is not enough bipartisan agreements on ideas, on principles and values. If you just look at debates on social media, they are very polarising. There’s nothing that people can agree on. I do think that the culture of political discourse and even politics itself hasn’t changed. If we’re going to make a go at this, and if there’s always a winner and a loser, then this thing is not going to go anywhere.

Do you see Twitter changing that landscape?

No, not really. People who have made up their minds, have made up their minds. No matter how much they tell you that they’re not biased, you could tell immediately where their support lies.

So we’re basically in trouble?

I’m not saying that we’re in trouble but we haven’t got enough in ourselves to admit to this. Everything is political point-scoring, grand standing...there is nothing productive that I’ve seen come out of this process. Which is why I think no matter what people think, I think that the 1Malaysia campaign is very noble.

It has its problems of course but I think we should commit ourselves to at least having a discussion about this. The problem is, if you talk about 1Malaysia with the Opposition, or people who support the Opposition, you get no where. It’s rejected out of the bag. They start saying about discrimination, scholarships, and things like that instead of talking about the problem and finding a solution that is acceptable to everybody.

Of course, not everyone is going to agree but there must be a solution that most people can agree on.

Is Malaysia at its best now?

It can be better. In a sense that I think we can leave behind historical baggage, I think we should start talking in a new political language, we should start talking about a new identity of being a Malaysian, I think that we should inculcate a culture of not just tolerance and empathy but also competition, meritocracy.

These are the things that we should push for. As much as it seems to be, or you think is, alien to my party, I believe that it’s worth fighting for even within my own political party.

What is the Malaysia that you envision for your children? Realistically.

The Malaysia that I envision for my kids is a country that is confident about its own collected identities, that has finally fulfilled its potential. I don’t want Malaysia to continue to be mediocre, because clearly we’re not made out to be mediocre. We are made out to be something more than mediocre.

So, hopefully by the time my kids are older, are adults and maybe even my age, I hope they live in a country that has finally fulfilled its potential. It comes back to that really, my hope for young people is that they fulfill their potentials, and that’s my hope for Malaysia as well.

Will that happen?

Depends very much on what we’re willing to do today onwards. If we’re willing to make tough decisions; and if politicians are willing to be national leaders as opposed to politicians.

(Source: The Star)